Kubernetes World: Finding Your Path in the Cloud Native Ecosystem

Narrator
Hello and welcome to Code[ish], an exploration of the lives of modern developers. Join us as we dive into topics like languages and frameworks, data and event-driven architectures, artificial intelligence, and individual and team productivity. Tailored to developers and engineering leaders, this episode is part of our Dev Life series.

Julián
Hello, hello and welcome to Code[ish], the Heroku Podcast. My name is Julián Duque, Principal Developer Advocate for Heroku and your host here at the Code[ish] Podcast. And with me we have a special invited host, which is Yadin Porter de Leon. Hello Yadin, how are you doing?

Yadin
I’m doing fantastic. I’m so excited, Julián, to be on the show guest hosting with you. I have been looking forward to this day for a very long time.

Julián
Well, Yadin has been one of the main believers of Code[ish] podcast. Thanks to him, we were able to relaunch this back in July, and we are so happy to have him hosting with me. But the important topic today is going to be all about community. And for that, we have as guest Bart Farrell. He’s from KubeFM and LearnKube, a content creator, amazing podcast host, and he will be talking to us about the Kubernetes community. Hello, Bart. How are you doing?

Bart
Very, very good. Thank you very much for having me.

Julián
Okay. Have you been enjoying the event? Right now, at the time of the recording, we are at KubeCon North America. Huge event. We have been having a lot of fun meeting with a lot of people, all the different open-source projects, and this… It’s massive what’s going on right now within the open-source community. How has been your impression of the event so far?

Bart
It’s fantastic. It’s always wonderful to see folks from all over the world gather in the same place. I’ve been at seven KubeCons, and each time I get to meet new people that I haven’t spoken to before in person. People that maybe I’ve interacted with online. I’m also a CNCF Ambassador, so it’s always nice to catch up with people, like I said, from, you know, dozens of different countries to hear about what’s going on in their parts of the world, the things that they have to share. So, yeah, it’s intense, but it’s always extremely rewarding.

Julián
Awesome, and before we start with the topic, tell us a little bit more about KubeFM and LearnKube.

Bart
Okay, so LearnKube got started in 2017 as a training organization. As we all know, there’s a steep learning curve when it comes to learning Kubernetes. And so through trainings given online and in person, realizing that it’s also important to share content with folks so that they can level up. And two years ago, I was given the opportunity to launch KubeFM, the podcast. We have regular episodes. It’s content for engineers from engineers explaining how they’re tackling the technical challenges that they face in the Kubernetes ecosystem. And in addition to that, we also do interviews. We speak to the community at KubeCons as well as online and hearing about, like I said, all the different things that are going on. As we know, as George Orwell said, “It requires a constant struggle to see what’s in front of your nose.” And it’s very true in the Kubernetes ecosystem.

Julián
That’s true, especially with this huge community. I mean, there’s more than 10,000 people right here. And this is true for every KubeCon. This is my fourth. And each one has been, like, larger than the other one. So this is a really thriving and amazing community. I mean, speaking about community, we have been working together on the community asset, and I will let Yadin, who has been like the, one of the brains behind this asset, to talk about a little bit more about it, and tell us what we build together. How are we approaching it? How are we reaching out to community? How are we sharing resources with them? So, Yadin, tell us a little bit more about the community asset.

Yadin
Oh, thank you, Julián, and it’s been great working with Bart and LearnKube and KubeFM on this project. It’s been absolutely fabulous. And community has been something that’s been so important to everything that I do. And like you guys were just talking about, like, the Orwell quote where you’re struggling to see what’s right in front of your nose, it’s amazing. Any moment you walk through the hallways, you could either talk to someone or not talk to someone. You could either walk in a room or not walk in a room, and it completely changed the trajectory of the day, the week, or even your career. And so, with that in mind, I wanted to show up to my first KubeCon, which is my first one, super exciting, lots of really great energy. I wanted to show up with something that really is going to help people. I’ve done this in the past with other communities where it is so overwhelming. There is so much and you need to get started. And others who are already in the community, they’re trying to help others get started. And that’s what the great thing about community is. But, where is that tool? Where is that thing you can hand someone and say, here, start here, read this, look at this, and this will give you not just an overview of KubeCon or maybe some Kubernetes training, here’s how to get involved in the community, how to connect with people, how to find people online. And not everything, because there’s too much. So this book that we created is that tool and it’s called Kubernetes World: Finding Your Path. And it was a wonderful, wonderful partnership that I had with Bart and the KubeFM and the LearnKube team. And they did the big heavy lift of reaching out to the people, doing the interviews, getting this book together, which is absolutely fabulous. So, I’ve done this in the past, but really, this was a content creation effort that was on the LearnKube side, where they created this from nothing to something. We just like, were jamming on this and like, we should really do this, and it almost didn’t happen. And like Bart and Amit over there were like, no, we can do this. We can make it happen. And I said, great, run with it, because I’m just barely making it to KubeCon. And so it launched. And I think what we haven’t talked about, Bart, is that process of first, hey, this is the idea, this is how it sparked. We wanted to help people, like you said, to level up. And there’s all sorts of different parts of the Kubernetes community, or learning Kubernetes. And like, Chris or Brandon up on the main stage will talk about, they’ll say, hey, look it, there’s this like invisible sort of parts of the ecosystem. It’s not just commits, it’s not just projects, it’s people. And that’s the big backbone of it. And so maybe we could walk through, hey, here’s the idea. This is what we wanted to do. We want to help people level up. What was it like first finding the people, reaching out to the people, doing the interviews? Maybe kind of walk through that and then I can then go into like, hey, this is how it’s launched at KubeCon, and this is what we’ve been doing, and this is what the response has been. But yeah, kind of walk me through that process of like… and what was the reaction of people when you like, approached them with the project?

Bart
Yeah. You know, it’s really beautiful. It’s really beautiful when you get to be… you’re the answer to a question that you’ve had in the past. And also when we think about… when we talk about, you know, the solutions that we’re working on and the technologies that people are creating, one of the questions that I always ask people is, what pain point is it that you’re trying to solve? And the more painful that pain point is, the, you know, the greater service that you’ll be providing to the community. And I got started in the Cloud Native and Kubernetes community in 2020, and as coming from a non-technical background, it was completely overwhelming. I remember I went to my first KubeCon online in November of 2020 and was just completely blown away by the hallway track and all the people that were talking there, all the interactions that happened there. And I’m still a big believer in the hallway track. But at that point, when I got started, I really could have benefited from having a resource like the one that we just created. And so, you know, coming full circle on that, and also in addition, is that my… I got started with CNCF by participating in the upstream… the contributor experience upstream marketing group. And it was there where I met Kaslin Fields. And so, it’s also really cool to be coming full circle now, to be hearing about her experience when she got started and thinking about how she was very instrumental in helping me get plugged in. Because once again, coming from a non-technical background, I thought, what is it that I’m actually going to be able to do to contribute? Because I don’t write commits. I’m not writing pull requests. You know, I’m not doing the, you know, the coding side of things. But realizing that I could also participate, that was like a really eye-opening experience for me. And then it’s something that you want to then pay it forward to others to, you know, to make the table bigger so that more people have space…

Yadin
Yes, I love that analogy.

Bart
…and can have those experiences. So then, you know, once we started jamming on it, which is, I really like… have you mentioned that I’m a musician? So it’s something I can very much relate to, is that once we started doing that, then it was like, okay, the tricky part is, is that we’re only going to be able to talk to so many people for this first iteration. So, you know, who are these people that we’re going to go, you know, and speak to? And so the, you know, the selection process… there is obviously, you know, we made a selection, but we could have easily had ten times that many, you know, people involved. And I think that’s the beauty of it in realizing how much depth there is and potential there is for this to be a, you know, a growing resource in the future. So, in terms of the, getting the balance of people of, you know, some folks that are project maintainers, some people that lead communities, other folks that are ambassadors, some that have gone from being LFX mentees and are now, you know, core contributors to projects. So getting different perspectives to make it that more evident to people that don’t worry about what you can, you know, don’t worry about what you can’t do. Focus on what you can. And then it’s just a question of how can we transfer those skills or get you connected to the right people in the ecosystem so that you can hit the ground running and have very rewarding experiences, meet people, and enjoy all the benefits of being part of this community.

Yadin
Yeah, I think the way you walked through that and your experience starting out and just how overwhelming that is, I think that’s… like you were saying, that is the problem that’s been trying to be solved. And me, when I come into like, a really intensely technical world like Kubernetes, like this first I’m going to KubeCon, you know, not committing. But what can I do? Community is a huge thing. Okay, what can I do in community? I can do documentation. Like, there’s always ways in which you can contribute and documentation is a big thing. Like, well I’m going to do documentation for community, which is what I’ve done in the past and like… and I brought that same mentality here. I’m like, okay, I’m going to contribute and I’m going to have something that someone can use to have a really great onboarding experience. And I feel like that’s sort of the analogy that I’m using too when it comes to commits. It’s like if someone creates really good documentation, that could create a really good onboarding process for a project. And the community is the same way, is, how can we make that table bigger and make that scalable and make it easy for people who are already in the community who like, fumbled, stumbled, you know, wandered their way through that path, kind of like you did, and I’ve done in other communities. How can we make that onboarding experience so much better? And just hand them something and say, here, look at this. Now, you know, here’s a way you can raise your hand. Here’s ways you can contribute. Here are a bunch of people. And I think this is probably one of the biggest things, like you were talking about. Here’s how others felt when they first walked into that room, and people had imposter syndrome. People think that, “I’m not technical enough to even be here. This is so crazy. These people are doing amazing things. I’ll never be able to do that.” And then seeing in this book those who are now like CNCF Ambassadors, those who are like leading projects. Now, seeing how they felt that way, the same way in the very beginning, and maybe talk to… because like reading the book, you hear those, you know, those stories that like, “I didn’t think I deserve to be here until someone handed me a shirt and told me to sit down.” Or, “Finally, I was there for so many meetups. And then I finally raised my hand one day.” Or somebody like you were talking about, took me, like under their wing and like, helped me. Walk me through sort of some of the people who are in the book. And then that… how they went through that process just kind of at a high level. I know the book goes deep into it, but just kind of give me a high-level, sort of overview, and kind of some of those takeaways that really, kind of struck you when you were going through that process.

Bart
That’s great. And, you know, it was one of… it was actually the youngest person that we interviewed, Prasanth, who’s worked deeply on the Harbor project and first started as an LFX mentee. And so, you know, he’s been involved in the ecosystem, let’s say, for around two years. But hearing from him, you know, the notion that this is a marathon, it’s not a sprint. And for people that are expecting, you know, massive results or massive changes in a very short period of time, that they really need to, you know, sort of hold their horses and be patient. And as you mentioned, like, it can be a simple, you know, you can’t under… you know, you can’t underestimate the importance of a single action. Like it’s…

Yadin
I love that. We should underscore that.

Bart
Yeah. It’s really true that you can just… you don’t have to have a solution in a meeting or have a pull request. Just go to a meeting. Like that counts as a contribution, right? Your presence being there because you’re showing the people that are also participating, that there’s further interest, that people have questions. Asking a question is a way of contributing. And because, you know, you’re breaking the silence, you’re inviting other people to share their opinions. And perhaps someone else had the same question, and it wasn’t answered. That being said, it’s also always good, as Yadin rightfully mentioned, documentation is your friend. It will help your onboarding experience. It will make your questions more precise. It’ll show people that you’ve done your homework. So like I said, Prasanth’s advice about, you know, that you don’t need to be in a hurry, that you need to enjoy the process. There is a learning curve with these things, but luckily, there are lots and lots of resources out there for you to learn. So his advice there like I said, was extremely beneficial. Going back to my experience and the contributor experience and the contributor experience upstream marketing group, the working group, one of the things, you know, that I realized joining that was people insisting on being welcoming, right? So telling everyone like, you are welcome here. You have a place here. You don’t have to participate in the meeting. You don’t have to have your camera on. You can just sit there, and if you have questions, that’s great. And if not, it’s still… you’re very welcome here, and you have a place here.

Yadin
I love that.

Bart
So I really want people to know that it couldn’t be easier to get involved. And something, you know, I’ve worked in training as a teacher in the past. We say there are no such things as stupid questions, only stupid silences. So I really hope with this, with this asset, you know, like we’ve seen the stickers before of, you know, like this machine, you know, kills apathy. Well, I hope that this asset kills stupid silences because we want people to know every single one of the people that we interviewed, they all gave their information at the end of their interviews. And so if you want to reach out to them on Slack, if you have questions, all these people are now readily available. So don’t suffer in silence. Don’t be a stranger. Please reach out. And what I always tell people is that if I don’t have the answer to your question, I definitely know somebody who does. Or if I’m not the person who can help you, I definitely know someone who would be happy to do so. Everyone has an ambassador, a CNCF Ambassador, that if they’re not in your country, they’re relatively close. Regardless of your background, the language you speak, the languages you don’t speak, there’s someone in this community who can definitely help you.

Yadin
No, that’s fabulous. I love that: there’s only stupid silences. Just like a fab… fabulous analogy. And I think one of the critical things that you mentioned in there was that this is a welcoming community. I think virtually everyone has had the experience of raising their hand and then being slapped down by somebody, an idiot in the room, you know, and these are in other circles, other places, other cultures that are just not welcoming, that are like people…. it’s the one-up mentality. It’s the gotcha politics. And they’re gun-shy, and they’re going into a room where people are, like, deeply technical. And they’ve had experience in this project that they don’t have, and they’re just trying to learn quietly in the background. But this… when you walk into a community culture, like it’s… like it’s almost like it’s demanded that you are, like you said, welcomed, like, you know, we are going to go out of our way to make sure you feel like you belong here, because we know the more energy we put into you and the more we invest in your success, the more successful every other single person is going to be in the room. And I think that’s probably the most beautiful part of it. And I think that’s what I hope this asset underscores for everyone is, show up, raise your hand, ask questions. You are welcomed. And every moment that you’re part of that community, you are contributing. So, Julián, I know you’ve, you know, kind of tangentially been a part of sort of hearing about this process, learning about it. And of course, you’ve gone to a lot of different shows. You’ve been, you know, in all these different sort of technical, you know, projects and all the great stuff that you work on. I love to get your perspective too, on kind of like what you would have loved to have, you know, walking into some of these rooms too, and what your experience has been like in the community.

Julián
Of course. I’ve been part of the… initially the Linux community and then the JavaScript community since 2001. So remember, back in the day, we used to get together to organize install fests. Like, invite people to bring their desktop computers where we install Linux on the computers. This is… when I was just like a pretty young teenager. And I will say, community for me was the one that opened the door to many things. I will say, I’m working today. I moved to the United States thanks to that community work. It started as just going to an IRC chat, chatting with like contributors and the people that were working in this project. So we were able to ask questions and find how welcoming it was and how they help, and that was inspired me to do the same thing. So if I got all of this support for free, all of this information for free, why I’m not do the same? So we started creating meetups, creating workshops, going to teach others how to… how to learn, how to be part of what we were doing, or all of this open-source revolution that was happening back in the day. I was not contributing to code. And I always thought that being part of an open-source community or being part of an open source project was just that, like the pull request, the committing to code, the hardcore developers that were part of the project. So my first real involvement with a big open-source project was with Node.js. And I started as an evangelist. So I was just like promoting the project, teaching others, until I had the opportunity to contribute to the core project, and then teaching others how to contribute to the project. So it was a beautiful process. As you mentioned, it is not a sprint. It takes time. It is a process. And you will find your place once you, once you open, like the opportunity to get into the community. So I will say for me, I had to do a lot of trial and error and find my way. But if I was able to have, like, some guide or somebody that told me, hey, this is how you do it. This is how you start. This is where you go. These are the resources available. It will be way easier for me to get it started. So I would think like a resource like this that gives me all of these tools will like… will be like way better for me to getting to where I am today. So I will hope people find this resource useful. And I will also expect that this is not the only one that we put together. I hope we can continue evolving and growing these assets. So, do we have, like, plans for, like, a second edition? What’s the future of it?

Bart
I guess we need another jam session.

Julián
So what’s the plan for the future for these, Yadin?

Yadin
All right, the plan… there is… there’s a little method to the madness. And so the hope is, and there’s sort of a seed of hope, that we create something that’s… that goes even a little bit… a level deeper. Because right now there’s really great stories, really good advice, good perspective. And then this asset really, I think, drives home the idea that you can be included, that you are going to be able to be a functioning member, a committing member, whatever you want to be. And this is a guide to kind of put you in the right direction. What I’m doing here, actually starting at KubeCon, is I’m talking to all these amazing people who have all these different perspectives on joining open-source projects or certifications. And I’m starting to gather those individuals and building a list of people who can create kind of those double clicks into, you know, into each of those sections, each of the areas, all sort of the overwhelming things like, hey, what podcast should I listen to, to stay up to date? And in this asset, you actually get the individuals and how they stay up to date, and kind of what their tricks are, but going that level deeper. So, I’m actually calling out to individuals, and if you’re listening to this too and you’re super excited about open source, or, hey, I’ve got a really great story about how to do KubeCon really, really well, feel free to reach out to me. I’m on LinkedIn, and I’m gathering individuals to be a part of next year. So yes, there’s a plan, of getting more people involved and having more sort of consumable pieces so that you can kind of flip through and go to different categories and then kind of dive deeper. But like I said, it’s not everything. It is just, “here’s where you can take your first step.” And that first step will help you figure out what’s right in front of your nose. And then you’ll become more confident, more familiar, and you’ll feel, I think, more capable of going and asking, you know, the deeper questions and finding the deeper resources. So, hopefully you and I, Bart, and Amit, and the rest of the team can maybe put something together like that for 2026, like I’ve done in other communities as well. So I’m excited about that.

Julián
Awesome. Bart, thank you so much for first, supporting all of this idea of putting together the community asset, for all the work you are doing for the community, and for like, teaching others how to getting into this huge Kubernetes ecosystem. And for joining us today here at the Code[ish] podcast and sharing all the things you do and how you contributed to this dream.

Bart
Thank you very much for having me. Really looking forward to the next steps. If anybody wants to reach out, you can find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on the CNCF Slack, Kubernetes Slack. I try to make myself pretty easy to find. And so don’t be a stranger. I’d be happy to talk to you and get you plugged into this community. Because like I said, it’s been extremely rewarding for me. I feel very lucky to be a part of it. And so I want people to share in that energy and passion that I’ve been so lucky to receive.

Julián
Beautiful. And you all are going to find the community asset link to this episode in the description. So thank you so much for listening to this new episode of the Code[ish] podcast, and looking forward to see you on the next one. Bye-bye.

Narrator
Thanks for joining us for this episode of the Code[ish] podcast. Code[ish] is produced by Heroku. The easiest way to deploy, manage, and scale your applications in the cloud. If you’d like to learn more about Code[ish] or any of Heroku’s podcasts, please visit heroku.com/podcasts.